Chapel Hill Sierra Club Forum Tonight!

the major sniping I heard was WillR laying the wood on Harrison - although I don't think it was sniping just pointing out a certain leadership style ed has or waffling as some might perceive.

The waterway protection was more pronounced for Carrboro because Bolin Creek future development is mostly in Carrboro's legal jurisdiction.

Carolina North has the crowbranch (feeder) creek and therefore preserving land around that in chapel hill would be environmentally sound.

Last night and again today Robin Cutson has used words I wrote on Squeeze the Pulp to imply my support for her anti-growth positions. While I stand behind my statement that water supply/quality should be used as a feedback loop to inform growth decisions, it does not constitute endorsement of Robin's positions or her candidacy (quite the opposite in fact). I resent the fact that Robin used my words without having had the courtesy of asking permission. Courtesy dictates a request at least.

Mr. Ed's "platform" is up if anyone wants to read it.

http://www.edharrison.org/platform.html

Nice language Helena. Very conducive to civil political discourse.

Helena,

What does the phrase "laying the wood on" mean? Someone help out this foreigner, please.

Fifteen years I've lived in the states and just when you think you've heard all the idiomatic expressions, you get a new one.

I tried googling it and the closest thing I could come up with is that it's a sports metaphor of some kind. Is that right?

Yes often a violent sports metaphor - maybe also "bringing the lumber"... try that phrase..

not related to a george bush "got wood" quote though...

WillR had a couple direct shots at Ed but I don't know if anyone picked up on it...

Terri,

First, I am not anti-growth (and what I have repeatedly said is that I advocate for more COMMERCIAL businesses instead of more high density residential in order to create a healthy tax base and keep housing prices affordable)---but I am NOT for growth that harms the environment and stresses our infrastructure and schools. What I have been saying is that our Town's continual push for increased high density development is apt to negatively impact on our waterways, our environment, our schools and our neighborhoods.

Second, I quoted what you posted on a PUBLIC FORUM.

I do not understand how someone can post on a public forum and then feel others must ask their permission to cite what they have stated. (Is that what we need, more constraints on public information under the guise of courtesy?)

Third,
On that public forum I posted concerns about impaired waterways and drinking water supplies as related to development and basically stated we couldn't just continue pushing more high density development and population growth because our waterways and lakes are already in trouble. I also stated current leaders were not publicly addressing this issue.

You stated, "I understand and agree with Robin's concern over water supply and growth. We need more transparent and public communications among local officials, UNC, and OWASA managers on the issue of growth, with water supply serving as one of the feedback loops in the decision making process."

Once again if we need "more transparent and public communications among local officials, UNC, and OWASA managers" then why, since you are an OWASA official, would you say your statements on a public forum shouldn't be repeated unless someone asks your permission?

Your statement does not imply an endorsement of my candidacy and nor did I (or anyone else that I have spoken with) take it as such---What I thought it DID indicate was that concerns over growth and water issues were valid and that you were in agreement that the water issue as related to continued development (including Carolina North) was not being adequately brought to the public's attention and needed more attention.

One last observation:
Why do I sometimes come away from discussions on OP feeling like I'm advocating for environmental protection and curbing high density development with a roomful of wealthy "growth at any cost" developers?

Is there any amount of growth, development and population density that would be considered TOO much?

Can't we even discuss these issues without immediately painting someone as completely "anti-growth?"

Off topic a little here....
Helena,
You've been on OP quite awhile now, and I missed your full name when you first came on. Can you tell your last name again?
What you say will mean more to me if I can identify your full name with your words.
Thanks!

On wood and lumber.

"Laying wood to" comes from the older and happier days of baseball when bats were wooden. After a good solid hit, the batter was said to "have really put the wood to the ball." The extension that someone was "laying wood to" someone else means that the person laying really smacked the other good and solid at least metaphorically.

The sex puns on wood such as "getting wood" are separate and only use the wood metaphor to indicate woodlikeness.

I can't or perhaps won't imagine both meanings being used in the same sentence.

Robin,

I don't understand why you keep saying things like "the water issue as related to continued development (including Carolina North) was not being adequately brought to the public's attention and needed more attention."

The information is readily available. Between the OWASA web-site, talking with Board members, and talking with OWASA staff, it's all right there. And when you look at the facts, there is no crisis - as I've explained to you before.

This community is fortunate to have lots of engaged, intelligent people who understand the importance of environmental issues. We also have one of the best water utilities in the country.

It is crucial to keep in mind that we are facing tough issues - many of which are intertwined with the corporate macro-economy which pushes and pulls us in directions counter to where our local best interests lie. There aren't many easy answers.

I think a surer path to helping solve some of these problems would be to view the local environmental culture as half-full rather than half-empty and work to build on the many good things going on. I know from experience that so many good people around here are volunteering their time on these issues because they genuinely care. We all benefit from new information and interesting suggestions, but nobody likes to get tarred and feathered before the introductions are over.

Paul,

Thank you for the clarification. I was thinking baseball bat but wasn't sure.

I was hoping "laying wood to" didn't mean giving someone a paddling, as in corporal punishment (or something a bit more colorful)

Robin,

You took one sentence out of a longer post, and ongoing discussion, and used it in an opening statement for a public forum on a political race as well as on a survey you submitted to the Sierra Club executive committee members--you didn't quote anyone else. Do you seriously think that you aren't implying my support for your positions by doing that? I can't believe you didn't think ahead far enough to realize I wouldn't appreciate your decision. The least you could have done was give me a heads up on your intention.

Just to clarify, I support finding communication tools to help elected officials, town staff, and officials from basic infrastructure services, such as OWASA and public schools, work together in a manner that is easily understood and available to the public. Too often the details used by decision makers get buried, making it difficult if not impossible for those with an alternative point of view to challenge the decision. Decision support tools, such as interactive models, make assumptions and variables public and manipulatable so discussions can be more participatory (and hopefully less contentious).

Laurin writes of her Prius " I've never loved a car before, but I
love this one."

Come on Laurin, have you never owned a Corvair?

Wasn't born then? I think my parents had one. I don't know. Personally I like the computer display telling me how many MPG's I'm getting at that moment, total consumption, how much battery life I've got, whether or not the engine is operating at gas-assist or completely by battery, etc. Nothing like a little technology in the car.
But Joe, you built your own electric truck. Don't you love that the most?

Robin:

This is a bit off the topic, but how is attracting more commercial development going to lower housing prices?

I could see more commercial development allowing one to lower the property tax rate on residential property, but it's unclear to me how it would lower the actual prices of residential property.

It seems to me that the only things that are going to lower housing prices in Chapel Hill/Carrboro are

a) decline in the job base, i.e. UNC shrinks, which seems unlikely given the way the Medical Center is growing, much less Carolina North.

b) significant spike in mortgage interest rates.

c) the Chapel Hill/Carrboro schools decline significantly in quality or reputation for quality.

My guess it that more commercial development is only going to make housing more expensive.

Chris,

Great questions. Ruby is going to post a discussion forum on affordable housing sometime today. It would be great if you could repost your questions under that topic when it becomes available.

Infill sounds great in theory, but where are you going to put it? It seems like every nieghborhood in Chapel Hill is signing up to be a conservation district to avoid having the infill put in their neighborhood.

The building at 605 Main in Carrboro (TerraNova) seemed to generate a fair amount of criticism, even though, in my personal opinion, it's an attractive building, certainly much more attractive than several fairly run down houses near it.

It seems to me that the only things that are going to lower housing prices in Chapel Hill/Carrboro are

a) decline in the job base, i.e. UNC shrinks, which seems unlikely given the way the Medical Center is growing, much less Carolina North.

b) significant spike in mortgage interest rates.

c) the Chapel Hill/Carrboro schools decline significantly in quality or reputation for quality.

Umm, how about increasing the housing supply through Infill development?

A qualifier- infill development is not likely to lower the cost of housing in CH/C. It is likely to help slow the acceleration of housing costs over and above increases in per capita income in the two towns by taking some pressure off the high demand/low supply equation.

Chris--

As a former West Main resident (we owned 616 from 1984-1997) I respectfully disagree. Those houses may be run-down, but they are in scale with the rest of the neighborhood. Wouldn't take much to "spiff them up," either. Besides, AFFORDABLE rentals/housing are rarely "spiffy." Isn't Carrboro all about affordable housing? Do the condos in 605 count as AFFORDABLE? (They may--don't know hwat they were going for.)

In MY opinion 605:
1) LOOMS over West main street and the other houses in a MOST unatractive manner.
2) Looks cheap and shoddily constructed.
3) Front elevation is dull, and the side elevations are WORSE than dull.

At least the "brick box" on ROsemary over by Carrburritos is BRICK and looks SOLID--not like a pre-fab sided building. (Which is what 605 looks like to me--even though I know it wasn't.)

melanie

I think it's worth noting that all of Melanie's criticisms above are actually about DESIGN, not INFILL itself. For the record, I disagree with #1, disagree on shoddiness but agree on cheap-looking (at least on the sides) on #2, and agree 100% on #3.

Some design issues can be solved, others are in the eye of the beholder. I suspect the next piece of Carrboro infill will learn a lot from the mistakes of 605 W Main.

As for the "where do you put it" question, I don't think the discussion was significantly advanced from the answers at the Sierra Club forum.

Looking at the comments above, I find Mark Kleinschmidt's answers to be the most encouraging.