Forum and demo against military recruiting

This is in response to giving "the Democrats a chance to actually get into the majority on Jan. 3 and see if they can gain a consensus on what to do, militarily and politically" ...

I think this misses the point because WE are the 'Democrats' and we have to let OUR representative know how he can best represent us before Jan. 3; otherwise whose agenda will Rep. David Price be negotiating for consensus if it is not our own!

As for Bush ‘still [being] President and Commander-in-Chief' Bush has been accused of impeachable offenses that warrant investigation. After so many years of the congressional majority being in the hands of the Republicans we may have forgotten that congressional oversight is a main function of Congress.

Below are just a few of the things that Bush has been accused of that warrant, minimally, an investigation. Please do not misunderstand: the call for investigation into these accusations is not driven by vengeance (not even in sports is it called 'vengeance') but rather by the need for accountability and the rule of law.

It is vital that we do what is right and not think in the hyper-strategic 'what is best in the lead up to 2008 presidential election.' It was because of hyper-strategizing that so many congressional Democrats voted for going to war with Iraq, as they were afraid of being accused as weaklings by the Republicans. After the 2006 mid-term elections it is clear that making the correct choice over the short-term and shortsighted strategic choice can pay hansom returns in the future. Rep. David Price can thank the anti-war protesters who were doing a sit-in in his office up to the very day of the vote on Iraq. Rep. David Price is now capitalizing on the choice he was driven to take by stubborn, sacrificing, active and, in the end, correct citizens who didn't wait --until it would have been to late-- to see how Price could join the consensus. --One more reason to stand up as a citizen.

The Bush Administration has been accused of committing numerous unlawful acts, including making false statements to Congress, the United Nations, and the American public, stating publicly that it was attempting to find a peaceful solution while secretly intending to go to war all along, accusing Afghanistan and then Iraq of having relationships with Osama bin Laden and support for the 9/11/2001 terrorist attack; accusing Iraq of possessing weapons of mass destruction; of constituting an imminent threat to the safety of the USA, its peoples, and property, and its interests elsewhere in the world, which alleged threat they knew to be false or for which they knew they had no reliable evidence; acting to deprive US citizens and legal residents of their constitutional rights; authorizing direct attacks in Iraq on civilians, civilian facilities, and locations where civilian casualties were unavoidable, including the use of cluster bombs!, designed to spread small explosive devices at substantial distances from the putative target, and illegally using white phosphorus as a chemical weapon. The Administration's acts have caused and continue to cause numerous Coalition and Iraqi casualties.

Then, beyond Iraq, there is torture, warrantless wiretapping, participating in the removal of the Democratically elected Haitian President, the attempted removal of the Venezuelan Democratically elected president, .... and it goes on and on ....

In conclusion:

Citizens of Orange County and the 4th Congressional District, stand up now, when it counts, and tell Rep. David Price:

“Represent me by leading the way on initiatives to leave Iraq TODAY (I already did the 6 month thing 2 years ago: we are way overdue).

and

Honor the Oath of Office that you have taken when you entered the House of Representatives by sponsoring or co-sponsoring legislation to create an independent commission or special counsel to investigate impeachable offenses and report to Congress on the merit of these charges.”

CONTACT DAVID PRICE

Washington Office
2162 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: 202-225-1784
Fax: 202-225-2014

Chapel Hill
88 Vilcom Center
Suite 140
Chapel Hill, NC 27514
Phone: 919-967-7924
Fax: 919-967-8324

Tonight's episode of the Simpsons was about Army recruiting and War. Coming soon to a YouTube near you.

A goal of only 4 recruits per month? Quite modest (have they no grit?) - and hugely expensive. I wonder what monthly overhead is for the recruiting operation?

Good point, Fred. Give Price and the Democrats a chance to actually get into the majority on Jan. 3 and see if they can gain a consensus on what to do, militarily and politically.

And please remember that Bush is still President and Commander-in-Chief.

"The Democrats now control both the House and the Senate."

Maybe minor but important fact nonetheless: the 110th Congress does not convene unitl noon of January 3, 2007.

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
SUNDAY, NOVEMBER 12th, 2006

CONTACTS:
Ben Carroll, 919 604 8107
Tamara Tal, 919 260 9190

*** Wednesday 15 November 3-5 PM** 1502 E. Franklin St***

Chapel Hill Resists Military Recruitment

Chapel Hill, Orange County— With a stated goal of recruiting at least four youths per month, a new Army recruitment station is opening in Chapel Hill. Recruiters will now have easy access to high school and university students, further entrenching militarism within our community.

Army enlistment rates have fallen forcing the military to adjust standards for recruitment to reach it's goals (http://mediamatters.org/items/200610120006). Among the reasons for the failure to meet recruitment goals is the unsuccessful, costly Iraq war--- which researchers estimate to have caused the deaths of between 390,000 to 940,000 Iraqi civilians (Burnham G. et al. Lancet. 2006 Oct 21;368(9545):1421-8).

Therefore it is unsurprising that a large majority of Iraqis—71%—say they would like the U.S.-led forces to be withdrawn from Iraq within a year or less. (http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/pipa/articles/home_page/250.php?nid=&i...)

They are not alone. As the recent elections revealed, Americans also wants this war to end (http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/11/08/election.why/).

The question is; will our leadership step up to the task?

While Representative David Price did not vote to authorize the Iraq war, citizens of the 4th district have expressed that he has not used his seniority to actively advocate the need for an exit strategy. In a meeting with concerned citizens last fall, Mr. Price said that the Republican grip on the House, Senate, and the Executive branch made Democratic leadership on the war all but impossible.

The Democrats now control both the House and the Senate. We publicly call upon Mr. Price to actively represent the citizens of the 4th district and lead a congressional movement to end the Iraq war and provide restitution to the Iraqi people for the atrocities committed there by the United States of America.

Wednesday's demonstration will include a youth-led march and rally by the UNC Students for a Democratic Society and a petition to Representative Price urging him to take leadership on the Iraq war now. All community members are welcome.

EVENT DETAILS
WHEN: Wednesday, November 15, 2006
WHERE: 3pm-March From McCorkle Place, Quad across from Post Office on Franklin St.
4pm-Rally at the New Recruiting Station - 1502 E. Franklin St.
CONTACTS: Tamara Tal, 919 260 9190 (tamaratalATgmail.com)
Ben Carroll, 919 604 8107 (nirvaniac2ATaol.com)

Apparantly Commando didn't see the election results and notice that his or her politics of "fear and smear" were rejected last Tuesday.

Apparantly he or she thinks that anyone who dares question the President is a traitor.

Keep running Republican candidates who agree with you on that, Commando and I'll be happy to watch them get rejected again and again.

Any proof there Herr Commando?

Commando, what or who is the "ignorati" and how are they "encouraing terrorists by giving them encouragement?"

And why don't quit hiding behind an alias and give us your real name?

The real problem is that the treason laws are not being enforced, because those who are giving aid and comfort to the enemies are encouraging them to do more killing.

So, in some cases, the ignorati really do have blood on their hands when they encourage terrorists by giving them encouragement.

Republican Commando
http://www.northcarolinarepublicans.org

I'd like to thank all the Peace activists for their hard work and courage down through the years. There are no holidays for them, no parades, no discounts at stores, no national monuments, and very little formal recognition. They are the ones who fight against the tide of our military culture to keep the flame burning for a future based on creative conflict resolution, cooperation, compassion, all 10 Commandments - not just 9, and understanding that the key to a sustainable human future is realizing that war is obsolete.

Dear RC,

Thank goodness for the enlightenment of the Democratic Party where women are also endorsed! However, this year, the Orange County Democratic Party endorsed a male Republican (Mike Martin) over a woman Democrat (Rachel Lea Hunter). Does that make the Democratic Party nonpartisan?

Thanks Terri

(I was hoping RC would tell us if he served).

Let me try to answer questions.

The English comment is from the old saying,
"If you can read, thank a teacher, if you are reading this in English, thank a soldier." If a lot of good men had not sacrificed their lives, we would probably be speaking German, and no one would be complaining.

Regarding the non-partisan position of http://www.northcarolinarepublcans.org well, I kinda have to admit that does sound somewhat inconsistant.
The site did endorse Lewis Cheek, though. That is because he is by far the better man, period. (and, no, we most certainly do not agree with him on everything).

It's not our fault that most of the better cantidates are Republicans. We will try to always endorse the best man, regardless of party.

Republican Commando

My brother and nephew both served. So did my father-in law and most of my great-uncles, all deceased, and my godfather whom I just telephoned. (I called my brother too, but he wasn't home.)

Fred Black, James Protzman, and Duncan Murrell are all veterans.
Thank you!

Commando, I clicked on your site and see you describe it there as non-partisan.

How can claim that? It is a REPUBLICAN website! In what possible way is it "non-partisan?"

Just out of curiousity, has anyone who's posting here served in the U.S. Military? Not me. In fact the only one I know personally who was in the Army is Jimmy McGoo.

Republican Commando, what is this about people here communicating in English today?

What were we using yesterday, Latin?

This is really so wonderful here with everyone communicating in English. Speaking of that, have you thanked a war veteran today?

Here is another interesting thing, did you know that there is a mention of the war against Islam in the Marines Hymn?

Apparently Thomas Jefferson had this little problem with Islamic terrorists so your incident with the terrorist attack at UNC was not some new thing.

The Barbary pirates were Islamic.

Ya'll come and read some history at http://www.northcarolinarepublicans.org

Seriously, if you can speak English as your main language, find an old veteran somewhere and thank him for risking his life for you.

Republican Commando

These questions are very difficult to answer due to the following:

1) Our society has not separated war profiteering from war.

2) We have no comparable institution to the Pentagon which has the goal of promoting and preserving Peace.

Thus we do not really know what an alternative approach would look like or how successful it would be. So we go on supporting or not supporting a particular war, yet always with the quick caveat that of course we support the troops & of course we are not questioning the military which has the practical effect of justifying the entire military-centric worldview. And on we go, even without success in war after war from Korea to Vietnam to various Central American wars to Iraq I to Iraq II to Afghanistan - all disasters in their own way, yet still we support the military solutions and mock those who question the underpinnings of this cycle of failure.

Paul,
Another complicated question.

I don't really know the answer. I suspect that there are many aspects of the build-up to WWII that we don't know about. I certainly have not heard about any creative solutions that were offered beyond the military one.

I do know that the Bush family profited greatly from the Nazi war build-up and was heavily invested in German steel and banking companies. The U.S. government finally got them to divest in 1942 or 1943. And of course, after the war, the U.S. invited many Nazi scientists to join in rocket technology projects.

The bombing of Hiroshima & Nagasaki was unnecessary and primarily a flexing of U.S. nuke power.

Of course, Hitler needed to be stopped and there is certainly some justification there. But is the story that simple? It usually isn't. I just don't know. But in my lifetime I've seen more propaganda viewed as truth than truth used to form policy.

Fred, on this Veterans Day, allow me to thank you and your family for your service to our country.

Jim, I came from an Army family but I made my choices based on what I wanted. I'm sorry that your experience was as it was, but it wasn't mine. My grandfather had to fight for the right to fight in WWII; he served three years. My Dad was in WWII, Korea, and RVN and retired at 30 years as a colonel; not easy to do in his era. My brother served 27 and retired as a colonel. I only did 26 but retired as a colonel. My son is over 12 and a major. My uncle was a WWII Tuskegee Airman and served three. My nephew is at 15. For this small group, we're talking 116 years; Veterans Day and Memorial Day are and were always meaningful.

What might be really a good thing to protest is why kids in our community - mainly minority kids - ARE NOT ELIGIBLE to join the military, regardless of where the recruiting office is located. Why can't they join? Simple, they dropped out or can't pass the entry exam if they do have a diploma. Some have convictions that keep them out. Nobody seems to be raising their voices in protest at all. So I guess we should be happy that they can't join up and fight in what some here have called an illegal war. Sad fact of the matter is that there is not much else these young people are going to qualify for either.

For those who don't see these as dangerous times and believe that we can do away with our military, I can only assume that you live in a fantasy land on a planet in a parallel universe.

Happy Veterans Day!

Mark, just out of curiousity, in your opinion was WWII a just war; by that I mean should we have gone in or should we have stayed out?

Duncan Murrell:

You don't like my opinions about military service? Fine. Just cut the crap of pretending that they're anything other than what I've said they are: my opinions. I don't represent myself as speaking for anyone else and I don't feel obliged to remind readers about the lessons of 29 years ago.

(I applied for Annapolis at 16 because I was raised in a Navy family. I entered at 17 because my draft number was 3. Now "one" can stop wondering.)

My contract with the US Navy was for five years of active service. I delivered every minute of those five years, three in hazardous duty. I didn't run away from anything and I resent your implication that I did.

Finally, I made no "extrapolations" from my experience to the current military. None whatsoever. Any good shrink would say you're projecting. What I would say would get me banned from OP.

My father fought in the Korean War. I don't understand the connection between that war and our freedom. I do know that it debilitated him psychically and this resulted in a great deal of personal pain and domestic violence. I'm open to understanding how this kind of sacrifice can be justified by some positive gain from the Korean War.

"We are all responsible for war, we are all responsible for every single man and woman who has died in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 3 1/2 years, and I see nothing good about shielding our community from the mechanics of the war machine, which includes recruiting stations. Until we dismantle that war machine — and it is a machine, man — I believe we all have a duty to shoulder the burden. You can't run from it, or reminders of it."

Amen. As long as we all live in this country, we are at war together--for better or worse. Hiding recruitment efforts doesn't change anything.

So Mark, should we just disband the military?

George,

Ain't no way that would work. It would only serve as a rationalization.

I guess it could be consistent with your perspective to also say - "We are not against the use of force anytime, anywhere, but until you reform into a responsible wielder of such force, we don't want you in our community."

Terri - protesting the recruitment of kids for illegal and immoral activity dose not hide the recruitment efforts - it exposes them. And - for the record - I'm not at war. No arbitrary political boundary makes me allies with the high criminals that have hijacked the show.

So Mark, it is "immoral" to serve in the military?

True, the war may be illegal, but since when did military service become such?

Paul,

We should reduce it by at least 90%.

But, if we were to dismantle it entirely, planetary warfare death would radically decrease.

Here is an incredibly credible recipe for demilitarization:

http://www.rmi.org/sitepages/pid713.php

90%??!!

How may people do you think would agree with you on that, Mark, even here in OC?

Paul,

The individual does not avoid reponsibility for his or her actions because he or she is a member of a nationally condoned organization. Were the people who worked at the Nazi gas chambers innocent?

Sorry, Mark, I didn't understand your last post.

What is the "nationally condoned organization" to which you refer?

Paul - "How may people do you think would agree with you on that, Mark, even here in OC?"

That's irrelevant to whether or not it's true.

The nationally condoned organization is the military.

So the opinions of the vast majority of people don't matter, Mark? Really?

We need to make major changes in the military and more importantly, major changes in civilian leadership of such. Our military leaders did not send our troops to Iraq, their civilian bosses did.

But to say we can eliminate our military is simply "wooly headed" thinking that will be totally rejected by anyone not on the far left and make your tiny minority even more irrelevant than it is today.

I see one of the groups leading this anti-recruitment drive is SDS. Say what? Is this 1966 or 2006?

And by the way, I am completely in favor of prosecuting American troops involved (and the higher ups that condoned it) at Abu Gharib or in the massacre at Haditha and the other similar incidents.

That said, I think the vast majority of our troops and their military leaders are honorable people who doing what the military has always done in our country: obey their civilan commanders, whether they agree or not. To me, this is a good thing.

Paul,

I never said that people's opinions didn't matter. Of course they matter. To state the obvious, in a democracy the people's opinions will determine policy.

However, it is undocumented that opinions ever matched facts.

A majority of people used to believe that drilling into a human skull relieved mental illness.

I also believe we need to put a stop to these new weapons systems like the VA Class subs and F-22A Raptors and similar weapons, many of which are not wanted by the military itself.

Mark M,

If I'm interpreting your comments correctly (and I certainly don't intend to mis-interpret them) you might agree that there are situations which might justify appropriate use of force. And that an honorable military designed for such appropriate use of force is not necessarily a bad thing. Based on these assumptions I would say the goal (and I recognize that it would have to be a long-term one) should be to reform the military, not ban them. And while it might be expedient to say that this is beyond the scope of anything we do here in Chapel Hill, you have to start somewhere so why not here. Why not say "Yes, you can recruit here but we will be here to make sure that everyone you recruit has all the facts and knows exactly what they are getting into. And we will be here to remind our citizens that a truly honorable military has an obligation to question their leaders as to why they are being asked to use force against other human beings."

Hey Jim,

I just read your piece on Veteran's Day. Interesting. My best buddy from the Corps, who I'll call Lt. Col. Arkansan, is currently commander of 1st Anglico (we were both artillerymen, came up together.) He was also an Academy graduate.

What I think is that your experience of 29 years ago, while very personal and vividly rendered, is only one man's experience, and one decades old. And one might wonder why a man so opposed to the Vietnam War, and so seemingly at odds with the entire culture, would seek an appointment to the U.S. Naval Academy while the Vietnam War was at its height.

It's interesting that you had the opposite experience that I had when I wrote letters to my former buddies, most of whom are still in and are lieutenant colonels, battalion commanders and regimental G-3's and the like. Even the most zealous of them were wary of the war at the beginning, and now are themselves opponents. Five of my buddies have done two tours in Iraq, three of them have done three, and four have also been in Afghanistan. None of them cared much about WMD's, because given their occupational specialties, none of them were going to be much involved in the effort to find "them". They were going to fight. And now I've had a friend die, they've had numerous friends die, and the windy b.s. of a guy who got himself a free education and then did everything he could to run away from his obligation gets my back up.

The fact is that the privileged children of our nation do not suffer in our wars, and the privileged parents of this nation do not often mourn the deaths of their children in war. No, we send the poor and the optionless off to do that for us. And for that reason alone, I see no reason to oppose a military recruiting station in a town as privileged as ours.

Should we send people off to war at all? I'd rather not, in nearly every case. (And, in my spiritual journey, I'm quickly coming to the conclusion that I'd rather not in _every_ case, no matter the provocation.)

But let's all get up on our high horses and ride over to Compton, and Plaquemines Parish, Spanish Harlem, and Robeson County, and every other large and poor and forgotten neighborhood in this country where recruiters find most of their recruits, and let's fight the recruiting stations in _those_ communities. _That_ would be a blow for social justice. But shielding the privileged children of our community, who are already shielded, seems silly.

And while I'm thinking of your cute little tirade, Jim, let me tell you another thing about your fellow Academy grad, Lt. Col. Arkansan. When the Alfred P. Murrah building was destroyed in Oklahoma City, he was inside. He lost the corporal he worked with, with whom he'd become as close as an officer and an enlisted man could become. The corporal's desk just disappeared into the void. My friend was farther inside the building in a conference room and was spared. He then spent the next hour frantically pulling survivors from the wreckage, even though he was bleeding heavily from his head. He was finally ordered out by the police, who said they'd arrest him if he didn't leave. He almost fought them, but thought better of it. He received the Navy-Marine Corps medal for his actions that day, and a year later he was the officer who helped President Clinton lay a wreath at the bombing site. He testified in both the McVeigh and Nichols trials, and broke down on the stand in each one. My mother sent me a picture of him from the Washington Post, crying. And now he's on his third tour in a war that ... well, let's just say I think he appreciated the editorial in the Navy Times the other week.

In Oklahoma City, Lt. Col (then Capt.) Arkansan was a recruiter. I got him on the phone the night of the bombing, and we talked for awhile. I said, "I hope they're going to give y'all some time." And he said, "Duncan, they've already got an office ready for us down the block. I have to go back to work tomorrow."

That's recruiting. They will keep recruiting, even after their friends have been killed in front of them, and they will not be turned back because some folks in Chapel Hill decided they didn't want to have a recruiting station in their neighborhood. They will find another neighborhood, more likely a poorer and more vulnerable neighborhood, and they will make their quota. We are all responsible for war, we are all responsible for every single man and woman who has died in Iraq and Afghanistan in the last 3 1/2 years, and I see nothing good about shielding our community from the mechanics of the war machine, which includes recruiting stations. Until we dismantle that war machine -- and it is a machine, man -- I believe we all have a duty to shoulder the burden. You can't run from it, or reminders of it.

Finally, Jim, I think you should point out that you served in a particularly weird time in the history of the U.S. armed forces, and that your fellow sailors and Marines were more anomalous than usual. (There's a very specific reason, for instance, that you were allowed to have a beard.) I think I've made the point, but I'll say it again: my experience in the Marine Corps was not like yours in the Navy, although I recognize some of the truth in the cartoons you create in your piece. But most of the men I knew then (and they were all men in my field) were good people. Lt. Col. Arkansan was one among many smart, thoughful, responsible, polite, and honorable people I served alongside. Of course there were sh*tbags -- there are sh*tbags everywhere, and there were more than the normal number during the time you served. But there were fine people too.

And so I take exception to your characterization of military service -- not your descriptions of your own experience, which I have no doubt are accurate -- but your extrapolation from those to generalizations about the current military. If your former colleagues are a bunch of mouthbreathing war junkies, I'm not surprised; mine aren't, and they also are still over there getting shot at.

Very complicated question.

First of all - our military is being abused and has been abused & misused for at least 70 years. So even if we could envision a just military action, we are still left with the reality of how the U.S. projects military power.

Second - it seems that every military operation has a story behind the story. In Rwanda, American mining interests play an important part. For more:

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/CHO305A.html

Just like in Afghanistan - within months of the military opration, the U.S. (i.e. Big Energy) had the natural gas pipeline it had desired for years but could not get for political reasons.

We are so far from appropriate use of force that we never even hear it discussed much less see it utilized. I can guarantee you that there will not be an enlightened & thorough discussion of the spiritual nature and practical applications of the use of force in any recruiting station.

Bring back the draft?

"Our tax money, our resources, and our citizens are being used to murder people around the globe on behalf of an imperialist agenda which benefits a select few in the upper echelons of the corporations who run the show. This activity is evil by any measure."

Mark M - I agree with everything you said in the sentences above. And I respect your position as a pacifist. I consider myself to have pacifist leanings but I doubt I would qualify as a true pacifist. But I would like to ask you whether you believe there is ever a place for a military (not the Bush-Cheney-Rumsfeld, kind but an honorable one) - particularly in a world where there are bad people who would do bad things to defenseless victims. And the genocide in the Sudan is perhaps the most striking example I can point to at the moment. How do/should we deal with situations like that?

Happy Veterans Day, everyone.