Bad apples

I thought Apple Chill and the motorcycle festival and the associated traffic management was handled very well today.

Unfortunately, a few idiots have chosen mess it up for the rest of us. "Two people have been taken to UNC Hospitals Sunday night after four shots were fired on Franklin Street." - News

UPDATE: "Forty-five minutes after the initial shooting Jarvies said police received another report of gunshots fired several blocks east of 110 W. Franklin Street. In a third incident, a gun was brandished, but no shots were fired." - N&O: Three people shot in Chapel Hill


"I think it would be unfortunate if the Council quickly cancelled Apple Chill without having a public discussion about what the potential benefits of such community events are."

Ruby, they had this talk two or three years ago. Do you feel like another public forum is in order?


I'm not saying it's racist to criticize, but that we should really question what it is we're objecting to so we don't throw the baby out with the bath water. I've been attending Apple Chill since I was a kid in the 1970's and I'm ready to see it go. The questions for me is, can we replace it with something new and better?

Dan, I think the normal Council process - in which a proposal is referred to town staff, and the public can comment on the proposal and staff recommendation before the final vote - may constitute adequate public conversation. That may seem obvious, but some other important decisions have gone through without such public process, and the Mayor is already quoted in several news outlets saying he wants to end Apple Chill. I just don't see the rush to make this decision before considering the implications and developing a vision for what comes next.

I was at Apple Chill for a bit yesterday afternoon. I didn't feal unsafe. I did know however that it's not a good idea to stay late; so I left early. I saw some music, looked at some art. I do wist the town transportation folks had done a better job letting me know that the NU bus wasn't running that day. Perhaps they didn't know when they printed the schedule but they could have put up some fliers in the busses.

I wonder if the problems with AC could be solved with a change in venue. If it was at the park on Estes (across from UMall) or at the larger northern park (off Homestead) the police would be more able to kick trouble makers out. It would sicken me but, yeah, they could have us all walk through metel detectors. Stores on Franklin wouldn't miss the crowds. Traffic might be improved.

The debate seems binary so far. One option is to get rid of an event which in the past has been fun; and of some value to the community. The other is to allow an event to continue although it's costly, dangerous, and wrecks our traffic. Perhaps there is a third path where, with a little creativity, we could retain the good of the past yet lose the bad of this past Sunday.

I've had an idea for years that might actually fit in here. It also relates to ways we can make Chapel Hill more economically attractive in the face of mega-malls and big box stores.

I think we should experiment with closing down Franklin St. (east-west boundaries to be determined) one weekend per month. Have outdoor dining, some arts and craft booths, performers, displays, etc. If it works, do it every weekend.

I always looked at it as a way to make Chapel Hill a more interesting and unique destination that would be good for local businesses, but in this Apple Chill context it could also be a sort of replacement or integration of Apple Chill that would diffuse it, partly retain it, and be manageable.

I would add a few suggestions to Mark's proposal. No power or power generators for vendors. No food vendors. All booths would be set up in the middle of Franklin St., leaving the sidewalks and downtown merchants open to foot traffic on either side. It would turn downtown into a walking mall, with kiosk-style booths in the center of the street. It would make our downtown businesses part of the event.

Can the roadblock end before the MLK junction or at the very least Merritt Mill? :)

What about closing off the outer lanes, leaving the inner lanes open. The restaurants could be sole providers of food outside their locations and craft stalls could abut the curbs.

Some traffic could still pass through, maybe with temporary speed bumps every 100 ft or so, and the highlight would be local food and local artists. Hat-tip to an OP lurker for the local roof idea.

The Chapel Hill City Council will no doubt vote to discontinue Apple Chill. I don't blame them. It's the right thing to do. But nature abhors a vacuum, and I wonder what gang members will do next year.

Here's my dire prediction: Next year they will come and someone will get killed.

Here's a few suggestions what we can do to help our police deal with this personal threat to them and us:

* Allow police officers to create strategic, informational roadblocks (ala Illinois v. Lidster, distinguishing Indianapolis v. ). Sobriety roadblocks are also constitutional.

Stephen Clossick asks

> How far is the town council willing to go to
> regain control of the streets? Roadblocks at the
> entrance of town where each driver is asked their
> destination....

I believe that CH did this a year or so ago for Halloween, stopping cars from coming inside a very large area, and I believe that it worked.

I suspect that such a policy, coupled with lots of busses to get people downtown might control the cruising. Turning Apple Chill into a pedestrian and bicycling event would surely render it a lot less dangerous.

BTW, this is not a civil liberties issue.

This year's events are totally unacceptable, of course, and changes are clearly needed, but the racial aspect of the situation is disturbing. I don't think we should worry about whether some posters on this thread are making this discussion racially charged. The issue is racially charged already. I think we should all be honest about that. Our nation's fear of discussing racial issues (and people's knee-jerk response to the word 'racist') are the biggest single racial problem we face today. Let's not be afraid of discussing race.

I went to After Chill (because it is much more interesting that Apple Chill), and I have to say that apart from a very, very small group of idiots (shooting guns) it was a nice event with lots of people enjoying one another's company. One young man walked up to me out of the blue and bemoaned how foolish a very, very few people were being. He was sad about it because he viewed After Chill as an important African American cultural event - one that he had come from High Point to participate in. He said that he grew up in Durham and had been coming to After Chill for many, many years.

I can't abide any event that will provoke gun violence in our community (as After Chill has occassionally), but I also have a hard time getting past the feeling that African American cultural events should eb welcome in Orange County.

I've been going to After Chill for many years because the event is so derided in the mainstream media. In the fifteen years that I have been going (off and on), I think there have been just two incidents of gun shots (1993 and 2006). I was present (but not too close to that actual incidents) both times. But on the many other occassions when there weren't such problems, it was a fun, spontaneous motorcycle show and all-around hang-out scene.

On the other hand, I've been skipping Apple Chill for many years now because it is simply not that much fun. The crafts vendors seemed to be selling a very narrow range of crafts. It tends to be extremely hot and sunny and the event is a bit of a pain to get to or away from (even for those of us who live near enough to bike or walk). So here's hoping that if Apple Chill is given the boot, that it will be because Apple Chill is just not worth the trouble, rather than because a few idiots show up at After Chill looking for trouble.

Sorry, should read: "distinuishing Indianapolis v. Edmond).

Here's a sad truth, and I don't know if anybody else does this or not: I did not mean to submit this past post (Pointer-thingy was at the wrong place at the wrong time). I often write posts and then delete them without sending them. Usually I do this when I want to flesh out my arguments for my own edification but do not feel strongly enough about a controversial subject to passionately support my own view.

I was on the fence about this post, so I guess it's ok it actually went through, though, as you can tell by my use of the plural word "suggestions", I was not done with it.

BTW, I do not like gangs and the violence they wreak. I have seen gang members of every race and major ethnic origin. They run in packs and often prey on the innocent. I have very little patience for hoodlumism. I am ashamed when I read of Latino gangs like MS-13. When I walk the streets for immigration reform, I do not walk for them.

MS-13, the Bloods, the Crips, and all violent gangs have more in common with each other than they do with any tortuously conceived significance one might want to extract from mere ethnic composition.

What I experienced last night was NOT an African American cultural event. What about specifically about it is an African American cultural event?

The UNC Homecoming Step Show is an African American cultural event. And the BSM and OASIS sponsor African American cultural events several times a month that somehow manage not to involve guns, drugs, sexual harrassment, disobeying traffic laws, "flashing" and nudity. Only a few people were shot, but a vast majority of people were engaging in otherwise inappropriate behavior. A few bad apples it is not.

The town 86'd it this evening. No suprise there. Some things did seem wierd to me. The Mayor read the resolution, it was seconded, and pass unanimously. There was no debate amoung council. There was no citizen input. There was an odd odor about it; like there had been some closed meeting and the decision had been made apriori.

The second odd thing was the media. There we four TV news crews there. They came in and got thier thirty second clip. Then I suppose they rushed out to the trucks and read a script that was written before they "covered" the event. I must be naive about the media becouse I just find that wierd.

Well said, Mark C. A primary concern of everyone ought to be why thugs feel embolden enough to walk around with, and use handguns, why they are engaging in robberies as they move down the street, why some feel quite comfortable engaging in the vulgar and degrading behaviors that Ginny experienced, and why there is so little for young people to do that those who are just looking to have a good time get categorized right along with the thugs.

In 2003 the TC unanimously voted to continue the fair. Tonight they unanimously voted to end it. Clearly, we have several social problems at work here and ending the street fairs won't change that. David Marshall may be right, and if he is, will that motivate us to deal with the root causes of these behaviors?

Of course, the 17 year old who was arrested for the gunfire and hostage situation at East Chapel Hill High School this evening is just another data point.

and the shooting at East is the sole reason why WCHL pulled our reporter from the Council. We covered it extensively throughout the day...will have more tomorrow as well.

Of course, we're hardly the same as the TV media.


Clark, I guess you can count me as naive too because that sounds both shallow and undemocratic. I think there should be some discussion about why this happenned and how we can enjoy public events in the future.

As I type, Councilmember Strom is asking for a staff report on other big events like Halloween and FestiFall. He wants to know if the Halloween crowds can actually be stopped! Like After Chill, it's not the Town's event and it's not ours to cancel. I think that's a bad approach to a very needed conversation.

Mark Kleinschmidt points out that these are great events that "give the town character."

Bill Thorpe commends the Mayor for today's action hastily cancelling Apple Chill.

Sally Greene thinks Bill's petition is well-intended. But she also says some citizens don't want to "throw the baby out with the bathwater."

Wow! You called it Ruby. It's disturbing that the Mayor didn't want to examine alternatives.

I'm glad to hear Mark jumping in on Halloween.

Sounds like, as others and Sally have said, that in the rush we're in danger of "throwing the baby out with the bathwater."

Hopefully we can come together as a community and discuss a new kind of cultural event to celebrate Chapel Hill's creativity.

Halloween celebrations have a very different character than After Chill. It's a recognized holiday, and it caters to a huge proportion of the town's population.

That said, the non-student/non-Chapel Hill element of Halloween is the part I worry about. I've been sexually assaulted (grabbed and touched inappropriately) there by older men and non-students as well. Making it more difficult for people driving in to get there will make it more of a student-oriented event and make crowd sizes more manageable.

Ginny, I saw none of the following:
sexual harrassment (although there were certainly sexual comments being made)
disobeying traffic laws
That doesn't mean they didn't happen, but I saw none of that. Incidentally, I have am aware of all those things happening at Frat Court (including the gunfire). Where is the outrage about that? What is the difference?

And as for your question: What makes it an African American event?

Are you serious?

Just to clarify, I support the Chapel Hill Town Council's decision. But I still think we should not shy away from discussing race as it relates to this (former) event. That some folks are upset about calling it an African American cultural event seems to demonstrate the point: We are in complete denial about the very nature of After Chill.

I'm sorry Mayor Chilton, but I think you're just looking over your shoulder for the PC police. If you say you didn't see at least one instance of: drugs, sexual harassment (which includes lude things shouted across the street), disobeying traffic laws, flashing, or nudity I have no idea where you were last night.

I personally had to go check on a female friend who was working late in one of the buildings on the quad.

As for what makes it a cultural event...

I personally wouldn't call it one, but even if it is, maybe we should think about whether cultural events that result in people getting shot in the head are worth keeping.

On a lighter note, I did see one thing that was really funny. After the shooting and police tried to more or less clear the streets, a few dozen people were hanging out in front of the planetarium shouting at girls in cars going by. One unfortunate young guy found out that a girl in one of the cars he was shouting at was his sister. Needless to say, everyone got a good laugh out of that.


I have to ask. If you think After Chill is such a significant event, why don't you propose opening the streets of Carrboro to it next year?

I am echoing Chris Cameron on that one. Where were you last night? I was on Franklin St., Raleigh and Cameron Ave.

Also, I am very serious. What about After Chill is an African American cultural event that makes it somehow an important representation of black culture?

Some would argue that a gun show or shooting range is an important white cultural event. Is it? Some would argue that strip clubs are an important male rite of passage. Are they? The presence of a certain demographic at an event does not make it inherently valuable or an important relic necessary for the continuation of their culture. You should be more specific in the subset that actually claims this event -- it's hardly the African American community at large.

It may be a sign of the ground progressives have lost in this era of war mongering that neither the shootings Sunday night nor yesterday's hostage taking at East has prompted even a whimper of a call for gun control. What will it take for us to once again work to remove guns from the streets?Or is the very idea of gun control now seen as quaint?

This morning's Herald verifies that the violence came in part if not wholly from Durham gangs. Unfortunately, there has been evidence of gang formation here in Chapel Hill and Carrboro for the past couple of years and it has gotten no notice, except by the local police. Maybe now, our elected officials and the public will take this to heart. What can do we do to change the environment that makes our young people want to form and change gangs?

Ginny, Find me a single person who has argued that a gun show is an important white cultural event, or don't bring up such baseless speculation, please. The right to bear arms in this country is grounded in the Constitution, which makes it an American cultural oddity. Ever since we removed race as a barrier to citizenship that right has been extended beyond white male landowners.

Don't use the "Some would argue..." line. It demeans the discussion; since it's Your opinion you're here to delineate, stick to your opinion unless citing fact. Please.


Dan--Ginny didn't compose an argument any differently than others here do. And I personally think she has an excellent point. To claim that After Chill is a black cultural event is insulting to the African Americans in this community. Just because a majority of attendees at any event are of one race, doesn't make the event a 'cultural' affair.

As for gun shows--the NRA spends a lot of time and influence making the point of them being "American" cultural events, but I bet you don't see many non-whites at those shows. Of course that is only speculation on my part since I've never been to one.


There's nothing quaint about calling for (and working for) gun control. I put a letter in the N&O a few weeks ago after they published a scary feature on concealed weapons. Now I plan to do commentaries on WCHL and WCOM. We all should get vocal.

Great idea Catherine. Exactly what I meant above by getting to the root causes of this problem. I suspect that Lisa Price and the North Carolinians Against Gun Violence ( could use some more help.

"Ginny, Find me a single person who has argued that a gun show is an important white cultural event, or don't bring up such baseless speculation, please."

An article that includes the fact that "white studies" researchers use gun clubs as a signifier of white culture. I also know people who have argued that, but I'd rather not say their names on a public message board. What do you want? Their name, phone number, social security number, date of birth, credit card number? Anyway, that's why the "Some would argue..."

Go to the Dixie Gun & Knife Classic or tool around on Stormfront's message boards for awhile and you'll see what I mean.

At this point, Apple Chill/AfterChill has been identified by certain groups (gangs?) as a time and place they are going to meet and do their "threat gesturing." I don't think it's a matter of random people showing up and just randomly packing a gun just in case they randomly run into someone from whom they might just randomly have to protect themselves. These interactions are planned to some extent. They involve a very small percentage of the total attendees, but they cause a huge amount of trauma for everyone else.

What we have to do is remove the context in which these groups meet and not give them an organized venue onto which they can easily piggy pack their own agenda. Then perhaps we can build a new festival tradition in the spirit we all want.

Many years ago Carrboro was poised to pass tough hand gun regulations that Jay Bryan and I had crafted along with a group of Carrbror citizens.At the same time the state passed regulations making it hard for towns to control handguns.In spite of that Carrboro's bill almost passed.A key vote against it was Mike Nelson would said that it was a good ordinance but the wrong time.I wonder if the time is right now for local officals to get back to tying to protect our citizens from gun violence?

One thing we should not do is retool Apple Chill. Any attempt to rework the current festival will do an injustice to the future. I think our leaders should poll the public and try to create something that identifies with Chapel Hill, or OC, or NC. Perhaps this is the time to come up with an idea that seems wild and weird, instead of falling back on tried and tired "festivals".

Why do towns feel the need to control guns? The state's regulations already require good, law abiding citizens to jump through hoops to get gun permits. One thing that those supporting gun control need to wake up and realize is that gun control doesn't take the guns out of the criminal's hands. I could walk out of my office right now and buy a gun on the street within fifteen minutes and probably for less than I would pay at a gun shop.

Has anyone else noticed that those who preach for gun control are called "conservatives" by the media.

Barry Saunders had a good column this AM in support of Apple Chill's demise. Mark Chilton makes a valid point that the racial component needs discussion. I'll wade into the treacherous water to express my thoughts. I don't think question is: are we ending Apple Chill b/c it's become too black. I think the real racial issue is, frankly: how do we, as a society, address the extreme violent and destructive behavior among a certain and not insignificant number of young black males? The NY Times has run some interesting articles on this lately, talking about the astronomically high black male dropout rates and incarceration rates, how the cache of "be cool" is so much more valued by many - including whites who emulate the black 'be cool' style - than graduating from high school. (I'll post a recent NY Times article and op-ed on this if anyone's interested).

I have great concerns about health care, the environment and war, but one can argue that our number one crisis is the African American male dropout and incarceration rates. Something like 1/3 of all African American males are likely to spend time in jail if current trends hold. Among black male dropouts, more are in prison than are working on any given day. If the white male incarceration rate approached that level, there would be revolution. We can blame ridiculous and racist drug policies, poverty, systemic racism, lack of education, disparate education and whatever else, but until we find some successful solutions, I fear that the mere statistics alone make likely that any party-type gathering (to distinguish from cultural events…) that attracts large numbers of young black males is likely to have some very bad apples doing some very bad things that are likely to make the silent majority – white, black, latino, asian etc. – very uncomfortable.

And that is a really sad.

And I feel bad for the motorcycle clubs b/c I think their reputations may be getting sullied here b/c it does become all too easy for many people to stereotype black males as ne'er do wells. The cyclists don't seem to have been part of the problem at all and I don't mind having them roar into town every now and again. (and their bikes are generally not as noisy as Harleys… J). But I don't feel so bad for the bikers that I'm willing to support the continuation of Apple Chill until there's a murder.

We can generally avoid these issues in Orange County, b/c our African American population is relatively low compared to, say, Durham. But the problem is all around us and it is epidemic, in my view.

I don't know how to even have this conversation effectively and constructively. It is so charged in racism and the cultural segregation is so strong. (This was a little bit of what I was trying to get at in the Alderman appointment interviews when I expressed concern about Weaver Street Market not drawing more local African Americans. Not to blame WSM, but just to note the discouraging self-segregation, lack of comfort, etc…)

While I fear responses to this post that call me a racist, I'm taking that risk b/c I think that this is a critical conversation. I don't know what solutions are. Maybe we need to make prison for those under 22 more like a military prep school and community college in hopes of at least reducing the recidivism rate? Frankly, that's what rich, white folk do. They send their wayward sons off to military prep schools…

Anyways, I think this is the core issue at hand here. And it's a lot more deeply entrenched than what I view as the obvious and logical step of ending Apple Chill.

"one can argue that our number one crisis is the African American male dropout and incarceration rates."

Great post David. Thanks for taking the leap. One thing we, as a community, should expect is to know how our schools are doing on the drop out rates by race and gender. I've also asked for data on the composition of the FOCAL program within the CHCCS system. What about local incarceration rates?

To me, making this kind of data public would let us honestly look at ourselves and make this a very personal, local discussion.


I think you are wrong on several points. No one calls those asking for gun control "conservatives". From MSNBC:

The gun industry gave 88 percent of its campaign contributions, or $1.2 million, to Republicans in the 2004 election cycle. Gun control advocates, meanwhile, gave 98 percent of their contributions, or $93,700, to Democrats during that election, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

You can clearly see that gun control is a Democratic Position, albeit weekly supported when compared with the mega-industry.
Okay, Ruby I just deleted my long take on gun control. Don't want to "hijack" any more threads. Back to Apple Chill.

Will R:

Did you really see Epic recording artists, Nantucket at an Apple Chill? THEE Nantucket that used to open for Epic recording artists, KISS? The Nantucket that had a guy in a lobster suit decked-out on their debut album?

(i can smell hemp in the air)

Excuse me, but I would hazard a guess that the individuals who decided to commit crimes with their firearms probably did not legally obtain, conceal or fire them. Therefore, more guns laws would not have stopped any of their actions.

Those who legally own and conceal firearms are almost never those who commit crimes with said firearms. Those are the facts.

Preventing law abiding citizens from having firearms will not solve any of the problems that happened at Apple Chill...

Eleanor, welcome back to Chapel Hill. I hope we hear
you on WCHL again -- someone has to keep Ron
under control.

I agree with the council's decision to terminate Apple
Chill. I spent about 1 1/2 hours walking through it and
saw remarkably few people I knew. I bumped into
Art Werner (former councilmember) and he said the
same thing. In 1995 when I had a re-election booth,
one of my supporters would walk out into the crowd
and ask each passerby if they were registered to vote
in Chapel Hill before we would ask them for their vote.
Perhaps 1 in 10 were from Chapel Hill. The craftspeople
and the food vendors are not from Chapel Hill either.

We should not provide a dangerous and expensive
street fair for central North Carolina.


Gun Control is a Republican vs. Democrat issue, but I have heard the media express on many occassions "conservatives calling for gun control".

My main point is that gun control doesn't take guns out of the hands of criminals, so technically the only controling that is being done is of those already law abiding citizens.

To get a gun permit in Orange County involves:
-criminal background check
-no domestic violence protecting order against you
-no criminal charges pending or controlled substance convictions
-can not be certified nuts
-no dishonorable discharge from the military
-can not be illegally in the US
-can not have renounced your US citizenship
-can not have had a DWI conviction within the last three years
-three personal references all notarized
-application notarized
-could take up to 30 days to get permit

Then you add on the federal regulations...and I say there is no further control needed. Gun control isn't protecting anyone because those using guns in illegal ways generally aren't jumping through these hoops. As I said I can walk out of my office right now and have a gun in hand within 15 minutes.

And keep in mind this is for hand guns...rifles and shotguns don't require this.

The most any municipality should require is the weapon to be registered.

If I remember, it seems '79/'80 they were breaking out so maybe Apple Chill was too small, but I think it was Nantucket.

It was roughly the same time period (year-wise) as the Dixie Dregs making their move (how many folks saw the Dregs on Tom Snyder?).

John, did you see local rockers Arrogance, the Cigs, 3PM, etc. "in the day"?

I know Nantucket ("Heartbreaker") played Kenan Stadium in the spring of 1980. I think they fronted Jimmy Buffett and a leisure suit-clad R&B act (don't remember which), for my all-time most culture-shocked concert lineup.

Make that "opened for" not "fronted". That would be culture shock!

Ed! Last wayback moment (at least on this thread ;-)) but I seem to recall watching the same concert "through the fence". It was someone like the Spinners, Buffet and Nantucket. Too strange.

Nantucket was from W-S originally, I believe. Maybe y'all can start a new thread on that? Terry, thanks for your kind words. I agree that the education gap is also a big problem. I also think that there is only so much the schools can do and that they are trying to do a lot but that it's easy to blame them. I actually think some of the flawed No Child Left Behind goals make a good attempt to get at minority performance by unmasking the numbers by minority and that perhaps the most (only?) intelligent thing Bush has talked about is the "soft racism of lowered expectations."

Teresa - gun control isn't the only solution - I believe the underlying issue is the culture of fear driven by sensationalized news of violence that drives Americans to own guns and once you think someone else that might hurt you has a gun you better run out and get one... But it's absurd to argue that better gun control isn't a worthwhile strategy, probably more effective in the ECHS episode yesterday than in terms of Apple Chill. You should rent Bowling for Columbine if you haven't already.

While I would applaud any efforts at reasonabe gun control in our town, county, or state, I want to take issue with Jacquie's characterization of the way the Gun Control failed in Carrboro. I served on the committee with Jacquie that drafted the report with recommendations that went to the Carrboro Board of Aldermen. I was not on the Board at the time but I spoke at the public hearing and listened to the whole debate. By the time the report went to the Board the issue was moot because the state had blocked the local municipalities from enacting local gun control laws.

The committee met for 18 months before completing its report. If the committee had moved faster then it is possible that something could have been enacted that might have been "grandfathered". As it was the committee came forth with an unfocused laundry list of feasible and not-so feasible ideas that didn't gain the support of the BOA. As I recall there were several pro-gun control members who could not support the committee recommendations. Mike was not the only one.
Diana McDuffee

Then you add on the federal regulations…and I say there is no further control needed. Gun control isn't protecting anyone because those using guns in illegal ways generally aren't jumping through these hoops. As I said I can walk out of my office right now and have a gun in hand within 15 minutes.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammed Taheri-Azar stated in no uncertain terms that he attempted to acquire a gun to commit his crime and was denied because of gun control regulations.

Imagine how much worse the Pit incident a few months back may have been if he had opted to use a gun instead of an unsuccessful attempt at murder with a vehicle. We would have been counting the dead instead of the injured.

It's much easier to talk about when gun control fails than when it is works, because every single day there are infinite potential disasters averted which, for obvious and thankful reasons of insignificance, never make the news.

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but Mohammed Taheri-Azar stated in no uncertain terms that he attempted to acquire a gun to commit his crime and was denied because of gun control regulations."

This statement says two things...

1. that the gun controls that are already in place work, so again are there really more needed.

2. he obviouly is clueless (as are many) about how easy it really is to get a gun illegally.

Getting a handgun is hard. Getting a shotgun or rifle is just go into Wal-Mart. Takes about 30 minutes. The only real hassle is you can't buy more than one per month.



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