Art on Weaver

David Price IS listening. He may not be giving the answers some want to hear, but he IS listening. Sammy, didn't his aide meet with your group last Wed? And Price himself met with the 4th District Democratic Party Exec Comm. (including me) on Saturday and listened to our views on Iraq for almost 2 hours. Again, he may not have given the all the answers we wanted, but he clearly wanted our opinions, it wasn't PR.

A supplemental appropriations bill is going to pass at some point this spring, period. The only question now is will it be an appropriations bill with real timetables and restrictions and oversight, as Price and others in the Democratic caucus are trying to put together to get 218 votes they need to pass it, or will it simply be a bill appropriating the money Bush wants.

Price is one of the good guys. He wants out, ASAP. And he IS listening!

Will, unlike you and I, David Price and Dave Obey need to find a plan that is acceptable to 216 more of their fellow Democrats. Now you may lament the fact that the Democrats can't get together, but it is a fact of politics in this country that most members of congress consider themselves "free agents" who do as they please, despite the "official" party position. Nancy Pelosi is not Richard J. Daley, she can't just say "this is the way it is" and expect all the aldermen to fall in line. This is not a parlimentary system, there are not "responsible parties" in the USA as they have in Europe. No one leader calls the shots here, especially in the party that does control the White House; they need to compromise on Iraq and find something that the Blue Dogs and the Progressives can agree on and it appears they are making progress. Yes, I know compromise is a "dirty word" to some, but politics is the art of compromise. If you don't understand that, you really don't understand our system.

No, we're not go to be out "quickly." But the leadership bill does set August 31, 2008 as the latest date we can be there, no matter how things are going.

Early enough for you and I and others, perhaps not. But its progress. Our system is evolutionary, not revolutionary. And yes, procedure DOES matter. Without it, we'd have anarchy.

While not exactly rooting for the Democrats, I've gotta say that more serious political turmoil is ahead if y'all keep letting Republicans be the only party with a vision (whether you agree with it or not). WillR has already been introduced to my thoughts on the subject.

That is neither here nor there though. Point is, has anyone actually just asked whatshisname to just relocate the signs to less offensive areas of the lawn? That seems to be the big gripe.

Obey and Price et al are not "sitting idly by" they are doing their best to bring this war to an end.

But as Dave Obey told that woman in the video, he has no "magic wand" that can do this.

Obey and Price are not the enemy, as some on the far left are treating them (I'm not saying you are one of them, Will). Disagree with them, fine, but don't demonize them.

Paul,

Do you know if Price joined the Democratic leadership in giving up their Constitutional duty to require Congressional permission for an attack on Iran?

I haven't been down there in a while, but for some reason I have the urge to bring my unleashed German Shepard down there, so I can run around on the fountain and pass out literature, and throw a few pieces in the fountain, while drinking a 40 I bought up at the Exxon station, before swinging from the trees, singing "Oh Come all Ye Faithful" and then passing out on a bench. It will be quite an unauthorized performance. Thank you.

That sign is flat out disgusting. And I thought the Weaver Street sign was bad. All these sign posters and anarchist painters stink, on an equal level, as far as I can tell. Paint your own house. In my view, painting "Free Sima" on the side of the KFC ain't cool, Carr Mill posting a sign on the lawn ain't cool, and some jerk posting an anti-Price poster on it ain't cool, and Sammy making it look cool by posting it on Orange Politics ain't cool either. I just can't help thinking about that big ol' political circle where the ultra-left meets the ultra right in a joyous anarchy/libertarian fiesta...

Mark, unfortunatly, it does appear that the original language regarding invasion of Iran will be dropped from the Democratic supplemental appropriations bill.

However, it is not at all true that the leadership did not want it, Pelosi strongly supported it; I don't know about Price, I didn't ask him (I would guess he did, but I don't want to speak for him) but it appears that such language would sink the whole bill, which is the ONLY viable alternative to giving Bush another blank check. This bill is about Iraq, after all, not about Iran. I too personally wish such language regarding Iran were included, but lack of such should not be allowed to derail the Democratic bill.

Once again, this is a compromise bill designed to get 218 votes to pass the House. I know that words like "viable" and "compromise" are dirty words to you Mark, but those of us who live in the real world recognize that that is how our system works.

There is not another public official in Orange or Durham Counties that I would want instead of Price as my congressman.

So Will, your alternative is.......???

Will's alternative is the same alternative that was expressed by both Durham and Orange County Democratic parties and their resolution to withold furhter funding of the war in Iraq unless a provision were included specifically stating that no more money would be used to further funding the war.

The grassroots understands that a vote for money by Congress for Iraq is a vote for the war. Like it or not, this is the deciding moment of whether or not the Democrats own this war or not, no need to wait for '08.

Paul, did you represent the Orange County Democratic Party in this demand? Did Rep. Price listen? 81% of the 4th District vote comes from Durham and Orange County. As a minnimum, on this very significant issue, and with this very clear mandate given by the county Democratic parties (his constituents), of the largest portion of his District, I would expect our REPRESENTATIVE to represent.

Rep. Price will vote for both further money towards the 'surge' and for the continued presence of the U.S. in Iraq. His vote is how I measure his worth. He may listen, and he may even say stuff (i.e. 'wanting tho get out of Iraq by the end of the year') but if he isn't backing his listening and talking with EFFECTIVE action (his vote and usage of the only power, the Purse strings, that Congress has to change the course of a war that is based on lies and which is exacerbating hatred torwards Americans [seemingly with good reason because we aren't accurately represented] by the rest of the world, lead by a renegade President that no one is holding accountable) then he fails in my view as a representative.

If the President vetos this bill that would be great! He would not get any more money for the war. Paul, what is the point of passing a bill for the sake of passing it when what the bill is for is what most people are against (The War).

Did you represent us? ... How?

Paul,
Holding up your definition of the "real world" and bluntly assuming anyone who defines their world differently as being out of touch with reality is mean, divisive, and short sighted.

We are all free to work towards our own realities. By my definition real change is possible by evolution and revolution. To be able to to define ones own political reality is part of a free and fair Democracy. One that the Democratic Party is part of and is sworn to uphold. Do you deny our right to define our own "real world"?

Do you have anything to gain personally by defending Price so vigorously? or are you just a big fan? Oh yeah that's right... you're an officer in the Orange County Democratic Party. So you come here and bash your base. Ya think that will win Orange County Dems more votes? Do you really think its a good organizing tactic? I don't.

Please stop trying to save us. All liberals don't have to agree or support Democrats. Can't you just leave it at the fact we disagree on some issues and agree on others?

Thank you.

Paul,
On a purely realpolitick level, the Republicans took over in the last couple of decades by standing firm on issues and winning respect for standing firm and not compromising all over the map.

The people are yearning for real leadership and can't begin to fathom the inside-the-beltway doublespeak that passes for the Democratic Party position. What's wrong with losing a few battles but going down with the integrity of a strong message? People will respect that. Tepid "victories" fashioned out of inside politics will not fuel any poltical revival, much less help us out of our mess.

Sammy, while I certainly told Price my opinion, I made it very clear to Price that most active OCDP members disagreed with me; I think Jack would back me up on that, so ask him if you are skeptical.

Brian, I have nothing personally to gain from backing Price, I don't work for him, I simply believe he is a very good rep, not perfect, but who is?
You are free to define any reality you want for yourself, or course . But Price and Miller and Obey and others have to find a "reality" that 218 of them agree with. That's the "real world" reality, whether you like it or not.

Mark, there will be a supplemental. ANY restrictions in it, no matter how tepid, will be a victory, as it will be the first time ANY restrictions are put on Bush's ability to conduct the war.

"Baby steps?" Sure. But at least it's movement.

BrianR stated above that I am an OCDP officer. That is not correct; the only OCDP position I hold is Vice-Chair of the Efland precinct.

I am an officer (2nd Vice-Chair) of the 4th Congressional District Committee and it was because of that position that I met with Price last Saturday.

Thanks Paul for representing us when you met with Rep. Price. What did he have to say about his going against the wishes of his constituency?

It is a shame that 'Representative' Price feels he has to take baby steps even though he has the full support of his constituency, fortunately, there are other Representatives in this Country who aren't afraid of being bold and effectively representing their constituents.

I am represented by them ... as are the Durham and Orange Democratic Parties.

Please, everyone, call Representative Price before the vote on the Supplemental Approriations bill (scheduled for some time next week), now while the National Democrats are negotiating with the Democrats with a spine, and let Representative Price know that you want him to vote on the Supplemental ONLY if it includes the Lee amendment.

Thanks.

Washington Office
2162 Rayburn House Office Building
Washington, DC 20515
Phone: 202-225-1784
Fax: 202-225-2014

Chapel Hill
88 Vilcom Center
Suite 140
Chapel Hill, NC 27514
Phone: 919-967-7924
Fax: 919-967-8324

Sammy, Price voted with every single one of the other Dems on the Appropriations Comm. yesterday EXCEPT Barbara Lee.

So just who is out of step here?

Paul, I know at least Barbara Lee is 'in step there' because she is actually representing her constituency.

As for the others I can only speak for Representative David Price as I know that he is 'out of step' because he is not representing his constituents. Durham and Orange counties are 81% of Representative David Price's District. The Orange and Durham Democratic County Parties have clearly asked him to vote against funding for the war unless the funding is to be used for pulling out of Iraq only.

Paul, you seem to have a strange notion of what it means to 'represent' in a Democracy. Our representative's job is to Represent us in the Governemnt and not the other way around: the Government to us.

People, not renegade politicians, should be the 'deciders'.

Are you getting it?

So Sammy are you saying that those of us not registered as Democrats do not get to have our opinons represented? Do you really know what the people who live in the 4th District want?

I think it is you that has the strange notion of what it means to ‘represent' in a Democracy.

So Barbara Lee is correct and 35 others were wrong, Sammy? Including reps like Jose Serrano, one of only three Dems who voted last year to leave immediately, who yesterday voted for this bill? Who is the "renegade" here? The one or the 35?

Are you getting it now?

And check your numbers again, Sammy. Durham and Orange do not cast 81% of the votes in the 4th district.

Sammy keeps posting that Durham and Orange are 81% of Price´s district, which I knew was way too high, but I didn´t look up the correct numbers until now. Fact is, Wake Co. casts more votes in the 4th District than Durham and Orange COMBINED. In round numbers, Wake cast 98K of the 195K votes cast in the district last November, which is just over half. Durham cast 55K, Orange 33K and Chatham 9K. That´s about 45% of the vote in Durham and Orange, a long way from 81%.

Yes, Wake is more GOP than Orange and Durham, but even just looking at Price´s 127K votes, Wake gave him about 53K, Durham 41K, Orange 26K and Chatham 7K. Using this computation, Durham and Orange are about 53%, still a long way from 81%.

Sammy, the voters of the district have clearly spoken in support of David Price. So you are quite wishful in your thinking that he's not representing his district. And to call David Price a "renegade" politician is positively absurd.

I also continue to think your posting of this picture is innapropriate and thoughtless. It is a jerky and rude thing to post.

Even if you were right on how the district feels, to me the job of a representative is more than just following orders of constituents. It's trying to make the best decision given the totality of all evidence and opinions at hand. For instance, what if 100% of 4th District voters told Rep. Price we should reinstitute slavery? By my definition, a good representative would say that was morally wrong and not in the best interest of the country and vote against the constituents' will and risk getting voted out of office.

Which leads me to realize that you can't have it both ways. If one accepts your premise on the attitude of 4th district voters (which I don't) you can't honestly claim that Price is spineless for not voting to get out of Iraq tommorrow AND a 'renegade' for voting against the will of his constituents. A spineless politician always just follows the voters no matter how wrongheaded their views...

Paul, thanks for providing some actual facts on the district demographics. Perhaps that will spur WillR to rethink his arrogance that we're always wrong and he's always right? ;) (I'm not holding my breath... :) )

The vigor of opposition to Rep. Price here is just crazy. Rep. Price voted against this war. And now the question is, how do we extricate ourselves from it? It's a hard question. Maybe to leave Iraq tomorrow is the best course of action. Maybe staying a while longer and trying to stabilize the country is. None of us really knows, do we? And to pretend one has the Right answer is again, arrogant. And it reminds me how thankful I am that I have a deep-thinking congressman who's trying to figure this mess out, not some "renegade" trying to figure which way the wind is blowing or some absolutist so sure in his position that he's unwilling to see other points of view.

David, good post, I was going to post similar thoughts about what it really means to be a representive in our constitutional republican form of government, but you said it well.

Will, easy for you to say all that as you don´t have to actually sit in the congress and vote on actual legislation, not some vague concept of what is right or wrong. You can be "Citizen Will," slaying the dragons and tilting at the windmills with no ramifications whatsoever.

"Monday-morning quaterbacking" is easy and anyone can do it. Actually playing the game is a whole different thing.